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Author Topic: LV mode and Low Vibration mode in DSLR and Mirrorless Cameras  (Read 17262 times)
timon
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« on: November 17, 2012, 10:51:43 AM »

What time would Nikon bring Zero vibration mode in DSLR cameras?
--- LV mode and Low Vibration mode in DSLR and Mirrorless Cameras
--- Canon and Sony with an electronic 1st shutter curtain method

1. Primers in easier observable examples
a very very heavy platform was placed for the heavy microscope system, no doubt, the platform device is enough strong and stable, far over any tripod, if you knew about the old darkroom enlarger platform.
http://www.krebsmicro.com/microsetup2/index.html

Unluckily, as you still seen the focal plane shutter bounce vibrations blurred the imaging, when using mirror lockup.
http://krebsmicro.com/Canon_EFSC/index.html

Not to mention a lighter tripod and a lighter weight's camera and telephoto lens with a sensor in 3.8μm or 4.8μm together. But, maybe you did not know the focal plane shutter bounce vibration what is soften sharpness.
I said above the example not only about the microscope-photography, as microscope-photography is a much easier observable problem, for topic is an easier starting. In many camera lovers about the focal plane shutter bounce vibration is still negligent, no enough noticed the problem. Unlike that, the mirror slap vibration could you already know to be careful. Similarly,  as you really know the mirror vibration could blur the images before, maybe you have been thinking that taken images are already "extra sharp" .  Sorry, actually it was not.

2. What's better than mirror lock?
Electronic first shutter curtain on Canon DSLRs, Read #091002 below,
http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/michael/blog/0910/index.html#091002

Please Note, an electronic 1st shutter curtain method can offer Zero vibration on the Live-View shooting.

Canon launched eos 40d in 2007, therefrom Canon's DSLR cameras have been employing this "electronic 1st shutter curtain" for "Low Shock shooting" in Live-View mode, the "Silent" is merely a byproduct, Canon's true purpose is with the shortest shutter lag and the Zero vibration on the Live-View shooting.

Sony have also employing "an electronic 1st shutter curtain" since 2011, like some SLT models and mirrorless cameras.  Maybe it is a filed patent Canon held. After several years it was licensed to Sony, so we seen Sony's several camera models got same as the method in 2011.

Canon said about "an electronic first shutter curtain",
Live View Mode also provides the option for Silent Shooting. In Live View Mode, the camera makes use of an electronic first shutter curtain for Silent or Low Shock shooting.

Also, when the eos 1dx launched, Canon again told us,
The electronic 1st shutter curtain method
This method can ultimately drive away the lastly rudimental image-blurring from the vibrations of the 1st curtain of the focal plane shutter. The sensor's imaging resolution fully shown up, and is the better sharpness.

ライブビュー撮影時の露光制御に、EOS-1D系では初めて電子先幕シャッターを採用しました。機械的な先幕が開き切るショックで生じる、わずかなカメラブレを解消。撮像素子が持つ解像力をフルに引き出した、鮮鋭な画像が得られます。
http://cweb.canon.jp/camera/eosd/1dx/feature-extensity.html

Canon in eos 5d3 page said below,
ミラーの低速駆動により、音を抑えたいシーンでも静音で撮影できます。低振動化も実現し、カメラブレも抑制。ライブビュー撮影時には、電子先幕によりさらに効果的です。

Canon so-called "Silent mode" in eos 5d3 has some new changes. Besides the electronic 1st shutter curtain in the Live-View mode can be selected to be Zero vibration, further, --- in the SLR shoot manner provides an optional deceleration shoot mode with 3 fps, the mirror drive device can be switched to a low gear to be much lesser mirror slap vibrations, the eos 5d3 here the mirror drive has dual builds. With low-speed mirror flips 3 fps and the electronic 1st shutter curtain mode combine together, for you can also shoot with the OVF manner in low vibrations.

Deficiencies, the eos 5d3 focal plane shutter is still lacking a decelerated drive mode. But in OVF shoot manner here can also use the "Silent" mode, it is actually with low-speed 3 fps and the electronic 1st shutter curtain mode fit together, thus gets low vibrations.
Also, Canon tell us,
some lenses could get CD-AF problem in Live-View, a long time's Live-View shooting could arise much more heat in the 5d3 body with other problems. (Since the 5d3 mirror box is plastic, so it is adversely to the sensor's heat dissipation).

In Nov 2012, looks the newest Sony NEX-6 got some nice changes, an OLED XGA EVF built in the body,  but the old NEX models were no viewfinder on the bodies. The hybrid AF system with both on-sensor PD-AF and CD-AF. Sony said below,
メカニカル後幕シャッターと同調してスリット露光を行う電子先幕シャッターの採用により、レリーズタイムラグの大幅な短縮を実現。また、「電子先幕シャッター」機能は、セットアップで「入/切」可能です。
With an electronic 1st shutter curtain and the 2nd curtain of the mechanical shutter to take an exposure together,  the shutter time lag is much shorter. The NEX-6 the electronic 1st shutter curtain mode can be turned on or off. (Sony keeps silent to the vibrationless in tacit, and is with the continuous shooting up to 10 fps. With the vibrationless body and high fps both are simultaneously realized). 

3. Developing direction
In autumn 2012, Canon EOS 650d and Sony a99 both have already employing on-sensor PD-AF for hybrid AF system, thus the Live-View shoot gets further forward.

In currently, Nikon DSLR cameras have not yet employ the electronic 1st shutter curtain, nor a deceleration shoot mode. Nikon need to catch up, in Zero vibration.

I expect Nikon improves on the d800s and the d600s. Certainly, Nikon d7100 should firstly be improved.
The patent cross-licensing was often appeared in between some companies. What time could Nikon be to get authorized from the Canon patent?

Remarks,
"an electronic 1st shutter curtain mode". -- "a hybrid shutter mode"
Actually, it is no any electronic blades added into the frontside of a pixel,
that merely electronically control to read info from the pixels, and then with the 2nd curtain of the mechanical shutter to stop exposure together.
So, an electronic 1st shutter curtain mode would not change the sensor's imaging quality.

In a DSLR camera, the shutter still has the curtains both 1st and 2nd, when the SLR manner shooting that was needed a pair of curtains.

Nikon 1 V1 and V2 have both vertical-run focal plane mechanical shutter and electronic shutter. Nikon 1 J1 and J2 has no mechanical shutter. These electronic shutters are merely similar to compact cameras. However, it has no hybrid shutter mode, no an electronic first shutter curtain mode.

Another incidental topic,
If wanted the camera handheld-wobble-lessen function could get maximal efficiency, must firstly eliminate the camera's internal vibration, no else way. When people who blame the VR, SR, IS, AS to get soften of the imaging, in fact that is because including the focal plane shutter 1st curtain's bounce vibrations. The VR, SR, IS, AS, these are nothing camera's internal vibrations helpful.

Recommended read,
What's better than mirror lock? published in Oct 2009
http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/michael/blog/0910/index.html#091002

A solution for SLR vibration issues with microscope mounted camera? published in Sep 2009
http://krebsmicro.com/Canon_EFSC/index.html
http://www.krebsmicro.com/microsetup2/index.html

In Nikon D800e validated the vibrations and the tripods
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3291854
http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/review/item/20121022_565399.html

Downloadable PDF file for a registered member, the file is not free. (Japanese), published in 2009,
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/HONSHI/20090427/169454/
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/NEWS/20090410/168625/
Chinese translated copy, a simply introduction, it including some charts and explanation.
http://china.nikkeibp.com.cn/news/digi/45608-20090413.html
English copy was cut down the charts and explanation. They writen English camera "shake" that is actually "vibration", the shutter bounce or mirror slap to activate up the forced damped oscillation (vibration).
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20090413/168663/
http://forum.fourthirdsphoto.com/f2/effect-camera-vibration-resolution-48296.html

LumoLabs measured the image-blurring was based on wide angle lens. In actually using, a lighter weight telephoto lens will be more headachy. published in 2010,
http://www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/k7shutter/index.html
http://www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/k5shutter/index.html

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3283427

( I rewritten a republication and posted here dxomark )

PeterZheng
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 08:35:55 AM by timon » Logged
timon
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« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2012, 11:08:08 AM »

http://www.flickr.com/photos/latent0image/6893681196/

YoniDM put question said,
Beautiful capture of the moon. I do astrophotography as well with a Sony NEX 5, but I never get the moon as sharp as this. The vibration the NEX makes when shooting an image always blurs the image. Did you have the same problem, and/or do you know a workaround?

Latent0Image replied,
I purchased the NEX-5N because it actually offers LESS vibration than other interchangeable lens cameras, (such as my Nikon D5100). The NEX-5N has a first curtain electronic shutter option which reduces the vibrations from the focal plane shutter.

Also, Canon tell us,
the electronic 1st shutter curtain method
This method can ultimately drive away the lastly rudimental image-blurring from the vibrations of the 1st curtain of the focal plane shutter. The sensor's imaging resolution fully shown up, and is the better sharpness.
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timon
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« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2012, 12:34:53 PM »

Japan Patent Office Published of the relevant patents during 2006 Jan - 2012 Nov
(Related in a shutter system hybrid-run method with the electronic 1st curtain and mechanical 2nd curtain) 

Holding relevant patent's amount 
1. Canon 12
2. Panasonic 4
3. Olympus 3
4. Sony  2
5. Nikon 1 (Just one patent related only to a little improvement on using)

These patents were mainly in Canon holding. Others who have merely with few improvement on their using.
From 2007 Canon launched eos 40d with the electronic 1st curtain method was past a long time 5 years. However, we have not yet seen a Nikon solution to correspond to the Canon method, even Nikon camera is already with a sensor in 3.8μm 24MP or 4.8 μm 36MP. 

For a sensor in 3.8μm 24MP or 4.8 μm 36MP the cameras more needed a solution to get Zero vibration.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

At present is in a perplexed period.
Nikon --- no electronic 1st curtain method, no Zero vibration mode;
Canon ---  the sensor performance needed to be improved, and the 5d3 is with a plastic mirror box;
Sony --- the NEX OSS lenses are mostly undesirable optical performance,  except for the 50mm f1.8 OSS is a limited acceptable lens, (Maybe the NEX 35mm f1.8 OSS will be not so bad?). Also, the NEX OSS models are too less and the price is also not desirable and based on so bad optical performance. If you used an adapter and other lenses, the AF and AE exposure will be lost, merely the Alpha mount lenses and Sony adapter excepted.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2012, 06:20:17 AM by timon » Logged
EPurpl3
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« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2012, 09:17:37 AM »

Very interesting article but i dont think that the internal vibration of the camera is so harmful to microphotography. I think you are actually talking about the commodity of making microphotography because if you look on the net you will find millions of extra sharp microphotographyes made with the same technology everybody uses. Sure would be better to press a button on the camera and than take any type of photo you like, even in total darkness without any high iso noise, but for now we cant. Maybe next year Cheesy
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timon
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« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2012, 02:45:19 PM »

I said above the example not only about the microscope-photography, as microscope-photography is a much easier observable problem, for topic is an easier starting. In many camera lovers about the focal plane shutter bounce vibration is still negligent, no enough noticed the problem. Unlike that, the mirror slap vibration could you already know to be careful. Similarly,  as you really know the mirror vibration could blur the images before, maybe you have been thinking that taken images are already "extra sharp" .  Sorry, actually it was not.

I have updated the article.

Also,
http://www.flickr.com/photos/latent0image/6893681196/

YoniDM put question said,
Beautiful capture of the moon. I do astrophotography as well with a Sony NEX 5, but I never get the moon as sharp as this. The vibration the NEX makes when shooting an image always blurs the image. Did you have the same problem, and/or do you know a workaround?

Latent0Image replied,
I purchased the NEX-5N because it actually offers LESS vibration than other interchangeable lens cameras, (such as my Nikon D5100). The NEX-5N has a first curtain electronic shutter option which reduces the vibrations from the focal plane shutter.

Also, Canon tell us,
the electronic 1st shutter curtain method
This method can ultimately drive away the lastly rudimental image-blurring from the vibrations of the 1st curtain of the focal plane shutter. The sensor's imaging resolution fully shown up, and is the better sharpness.


Very interesting article but i dont think that the internal vibration of the camera is so harmful to microphotography. I think you are actually talking about the commodity of making microphotography because if you look on the net you will find millions of extra sharp microphotographyes made with the same technology everybody uses. Sure would be better to press a button on the camera and than take any type of photo you like, even in total darkness without any high iso noise, but for now we cant. Maybe next year Cheesy
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EPurpl3
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« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2012, 03:10:20 PM »

I never had such a problem Cheesy, a good tripod and something heavy hanging by its crook + IR remote and mirror lock-up works fine for me (well, all my tripods are getting old and lately i dont get such a great result).

On my old camera i didnt had mirror lock-up and i was using a small diaphragm and higher exposure time so the mirror bump wont modify the image too much.

I certainly hope they would improve this in a way but i personally hate digital viewfinders and slow focus of live view.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLZqUJZ9ruw       Cheesy
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timon
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« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2012, 03:40:43 PM »

I never believed that who "never had such a problem", that is merely you did not notice the problem.

Please read here, carefully
In Nikon D800e validated the vibrations and the tripods
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3291854
http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/review/item/20121022_565399.html

and read more,
Downloadable PDF file for a registered member, the file is not free. (Japanese), published in 2009,
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/HONSHI/20090427/169454/
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/NEWS/20090410/168625/
Chinese translated copy, a simply introduction, it including some charts and explanation.
http://china.nikkeibp.com.cn/news/digi/45608-20090413.html
English copy was cut down the charts and explanation. They writen English camera "shake" that is actually "vibration", the shutter bounce or mirror slap to activate up the forced damped oscillation (vibration).
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20090413/168663/
http://forum.fourthirdsphoto.com/f2/effect-camera-vibration-resolution-48296.html

LumoLabs measured the image-blurring was based on wide angle lens. In actually using, a lighter weight telephoto lens will be more headachy. published in 2010,
http://www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/k7shutter/index.html
http://www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/k5shutter/index.html

I never had such a problem Cheesy, a good tripod and something heavy hanging by its crook + IR remote and mirror lock-up works fine for me (well, all my tripods are getting old and lately i dont get such a great result).

On my old camera i didnt had mirror lock-up and i was using a small diaphragm and higher exposure time so the mirror bump wont modify the image too much.

I certainly hope they would improve this in a way but i personally hate digital viewfinders and slow focus of live view.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLZqUJZ9ruw       Cheesy
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EPurpl3
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« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2012, 03:52:30 PM »

Well, on wide lenses you cant see a big difference.

Any way, good job with those photos with the moon. You also added some unsharpmask, right?
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timon
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« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2012, 04:23:17 PM »

LOL, a wide-angle lens is merely easier to  hide the problem.  Ok, actually you indirectly recognized the problem being there.

About the electronic 1st shutter curtain method at some cameras already have much more images, why did you not know?

"Any way, good job with those photos with the moon", Ok, you also added some unsharpmask with taken moon?
"slow focus of live view."  ---- it is already starting to change. Also, Sony SLT camera is not slow.

And you ought to know the electronic 1st shutter curtain mode can be turned on or off,  for the electronic 1st shutter curtain method does not increase more parts in a camera,  but only the firmware in prototype design of camera was changed, and the sensor design was slightly changed.

If Nikon d7000 has the electronic 1st shutter curtain mode, could you see some better results.

Well, on wide lenses you cant see a big difference.

Any way, good job with those photos with the moon. You also added some unsharpmask, right?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 08:07:55 AM by timon » Logged
timon
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« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2012, 05:30:52 PM »

Sony NEX-6/5n, Nikon d7000, Pentax k5,
So-called high overall scores have what true worth?
(Sliding below the scroll bar, and then see a whole picture) 
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8489/8208882824_a41d17be12_b.jpg


Cameras Sony NEX-5n - Nikon d7000 - Pentax k-5/k7 @ISO 400,
Lenses Sigma 70mm Macro @F8, No Flash, Subject Distance 1.88m,
Software DCR, NR = 0. Crop 300%.
Despite a heavy-duty camera stander used in shooting, the sharpness differences still got distinguished.
Not to mention a lighter tripod and a lighter weight's camera and telephoto lens together.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8487/8208903094_583eefcc44_b.jpg


The focal plane shutter bounce vibrations and the mirror slap
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 05:52:01 PM by timon » Logged
EPurpl3
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« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2012, 10:12:31 AM »

Well, i would not buy a camera just for that and i doubt that the most people would, not pro (because this feature is implemented on cameras that doesnt have a good sensor) and not beginners (they dont even know what a shutter is).
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timon
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« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2012, 04:08:16 PM »

If you like Nikon lenses, and wanted a DX DSLR camera, in the imaging quality that the d5100 is slightly better than the d7000. (Pentax k-5 is worse).

Some cons in the d5100:
a poor OVF is too small,
no AF fine adjustment and storage,
no build-in AF motor,
much more plastic and entry-level built in,
If you do not use the Live-View mode locked up the mirror, then you must open the menu setting, the d5100 is only with custom setting d4: Exposure Delay Mode. But the D5100 2sec delay mode must buy the ML-L3 remote device, although cheap.

but the d5100 is 4 fps better (faster fps to be worse in low-end camera), and slower to run the shutter blades and mirror flipping, all the vibrations are lower than the d7000, the imaging sharpness better.

do not buy the d5200 ----  a 3.8μm sensor and faster fps ---- and is no electronic 1st shutter curtain mode, ----- much more image-blurring in.

Well, i would not buy a camera just for that and i doubt that the most people would, not pro (because this feature is implemented on cameras that doesnt have a good sensor) and not beginners (they dont even know what a shutter is).
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 01:26:26 PM by timon » Logged
timon
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« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2012, 04:42:01 PM »

Cameras Sony NEX-5n, NEX-6, Nikon d5100, Nikon d7000 - Pentax k-5, @ISO 400,
Lenses Sigma 70mm Macro @F8, No Flash, Subject Distance 1.88m,
Software DCR or ACR, NR = 0. Crop 135%.
In shooting,
Pentax K-5 Drive Mode: self-timer 2sec delay, mirror lockup was self-loading, single-frame.
Nikon d7000 Shooting Mode: Delay [3], CL Shooting Speed: 3 fps.
Nikon d5100 Shooting Mode: Single-Frame (Normal).
Sony Nex-6/Nex-5n Release Mode: Normal.

Despite a heavy-duty camera stander used in shooting, the sharpness differences still got distinguished.
Not to mention a lighter tripod and a lighter weight's camera and telephoto lens together.

DxOmark Overall Scores below,
Sony Nex-5n  Overall score 78
Nikon d5100  Overall score 80
Nikon d7000  Overall score 80
Pentax k-5   Overall score 82

However, as you seen the image sharpness and resolution are totally with the reversed results.

So called the DxOmark Overall Scores were based on an A4 size of the printed result simulation.
Ok, who bought an expensive 35mm camera and is even a 645 camera to merely want to print on A4 size? Could it be a cellphone-camera?
Also, all the DxOmark Overall Scores were lacked an image resolution performance comparison, and is also lacked other much key comparison.

So-called high overall scores have what true worth?

In film era, evaluating a film model you impossible to do not measure the film resolution. Besides the color response and grains and exposure latitude,  must also measure resolution.

In nowadays, if you claimed to professionally measure a lens, but you do not measure the lens resolution, and saying the lens merely print the A4 size, so what to be a big joke.

People who read the DxOmark measured camera sensor, to do a double clicks on "screen mode" (pixel by pixel), to watch the chart and data. Please give up overall score.

(I will have another writing related to the overall score)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8337/8210998526_7ab67ecdd3_b.jpg


http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8480/8209910869_1a2c56d16d_b.jpg
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 01:27:26 PM by timon » Logged
EPurpl3
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« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2012, 01:10:29 PM »

Have you tried to use lenses VR on Nikon cameras + mirror up? I know is not recommended to use VR on a tripod but if you also use mirror up than it might work just fine.
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dosdan
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« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2013, 10:50:58 PM »

Timon, very interesting. But your comparison chart does not show the shutter speed (unless I missed it).

According to Falk Lumo, the K-7 has a significant problem between 1/180s-1/60s. The K-5 has much less of a problem between 1/160s – 1/40s. A resolution chart taken at a shutter speed outside these ranges would probably look sharper.

In your comparison, K-5 compared to K-7, don't show much difference. They both look blurry.

What shutter speed did you use?

Dan.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 10:57:41 PM by dosdan » Logged
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